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	<title>Comments on: Is Kevin Rudd a new Menzies?</title>
	<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/</link>
	<description>Guru = Pahlawan Tanpa Tanda Jasa</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4278</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4278</guid>
					<description>Both (i) and (ii) put greater influence in union and party members as opposed to higher-up people, which can only be positive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both (i) and (ii) put greater influence in union and party members as opposed to higher-up people, which can only be positive.
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		<title>by: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4277</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4277</guid>
					<description>I should add - it is entirely possible that under a leader, a political party may effectively remove the structural influence of a sectional interest group while not removing the form of its influence. Indeed, one could argue that many of the decisions of the Hawke/Keating govt reflected this.

There may be relatively easy ways to reform the ALP - e.g.
(i) requiring that delegates to its conferences from trade unions be directly elected by that union's members by proportional representation. This would stop the blocs of delegates being seen as blocs of votes.
(ii) requiring that delegates from the membership be directly elected by the membership by proportional representation. Currently in NSW, the default is that intermediate bodies (state electorate councils and federal electorate councils) elect the delegates - although federal electorate councils can decide that the membership elect the delegates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add - it is entirely possible that under a leader, a political party may effectively remove the structural influence of a sectional interest group while not removing the form of its influence. Indeed, one could argue that many of the decisions of the Hawke/Keating govt reflected this.</p>
<p>There may be relatively easy ways to reform the ALP - e.g.<br />
(i) requiring that delegates to its conferences from trade unions be directly elected by that union&#8217;s members by proportional representation. This would stop the blocs of delegates being seen as blocs of votes.<br />
(ii) requiring that delegates from the membership be directly elected by the membership by proportional representation. Currently in NSW, the default is that intermediate bodies (state electorate councils and federal electorate councils) elect the delegates - although federal electorate councils can decide that the membership elect the delegates.
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		<title>by: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4276</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4276</guid>
					<description>People who might vote for the National Party will probably vote for the Liberal Party, as many do when given the chance (witness the Liberal Party winning Farrer, Murray and Indi in the last few decades).

I seriously think that it would be positive if trade unions were structurally removed from the ALP. While some people say that business has an intrinsic input into public policy and having workers' representative organisations structurally part of a politically party in one political party helps even that up, I am unconvinced.

As far as I can tell, it is not positive to have one sectional interest group having such a large influence on one of the major political parties. The structural influence of this sectional interest group can distort policy making, let alone its systemic influence on the natures of the individuals that come through the political party as candidates for public office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who might vote for the National Party will probably vote for the Liberal Party, as many do when given the chance (witness the Liberal Party winning Farrer, Murray and Indi in the last few decades).</p>
<p>I seriously think that it would be positive if trade unions were structurally removed from the ALP. While some people say that business has an intrinsic input into public policy and having workers&#8217; representative organisations structurally part of a politically party in one political party helps even that up, I am unconvinced.</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, it is not positive to have one sectional interest group having such a large influence on one of the major political parties. The structural influence of this sectional interest group can distort policy making, let alone its systemic influence on the natures of the individuals that come through the political party as candidates for public office.
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		<title>by: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4192</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4192</guid>
					<description>Tasmania 2004 was a very different situation. Specific local issue and workers believed the Coalition's position benefited them more than Labor's. 

No matter how disappointed unions or workers might be in Rudd's IR policy, they're hardly likely to think the Coalition's is better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tasmania 2004 was a very different situation. Specific local issue and workers believed the Coalition&#8217;s position benefited them more than Labor&#8217;s. </p>
<p>No matter how disappointed unions or workers might be in Rudd&#8217;s IR policy, they&#8217;re hardly likely to think the Coalition&#8217;s is better.
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		<title>by: Steve Goldsmith</title>
		<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4178</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4178</guid>
					<description>&quot;Sure a lot of disaffected unionists would drift to minor parties (although we’re probably talking in the tens of thousands, not the millions) but it’s not like they’d start voting conservative.&quot;

What about the CFMEU, Tasmania 2004?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sure a lot of disaffected unionists would drift to minor parties (although we’re probably talking in the tens of thousands, not the millions) but it’s not like they’d start voting conservative.&#8221;</p>
<p>What about the CFMEU, Tasmania 2004?
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		<title>by: Kieran</title>
		<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4137</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4137</guid>
					<description>Interesting thoughts.

Another thing about looking at the historical long-term... it seems to me, that whatever you might want to call 'the left' has had its high-water moments in government, in the wake of the kind of disasters that make people sit up and pay attention.  The Great Depression.  The Second World War (to a much lesser extent, the First World War).

I don't wish for another such calamity, although it's probably coming anyway.  In the meantime, it really does seem like centre-right is the way of the present, anyhow.

Can't say I'm thrilled with that, but I also do recognise that there is a difference between centre-right and toxic Right.

As for whether Rudd will be another Menzies in that party building sense, who knows.  But things will change.  One thing is going to happen for sure, the National Party will cease to exist at some point.  Its death is prematurely announced quite often, but eventually it will be for real.  Even so, rural Australia is not going to just disappear.  People still live there, probably always will.  So wither those people?  Embracing the extreme Christian Right like they do in the depressed country towns of America?  Or something better?

Point being there, that the Liberals wouldn't be sitting near as comfortably without their Coalition.  Which also perhaps shouldn't be regarded as 'for all time'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting thoughts.</p>
<p>Another thing about looking at the historical long-term&#8230; it seems to me, that whatever you might want to call &#8216;the left&#8217; has had its high-water moments in government, in the wake of the kind of disasters that make people sit up and pay attention.  The Great Depression.  The Second World War (to a much lesser extent, the First World War).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t wish for another such calamity, although it&#8217;s probably coming anyway.  In the meantime, it really does seem like centre-right is the way of the present, anyhow.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t say I&#8217;m thrilled with that, but I also do recognise that there is a difference between centre-right and toxic Right.</p>
<p>As for whether Rudd will be another Menzies in that party building sense, who knows.  But things will change.  One thing is going to happen for sure, the National Party will cease to exist at some point.  Its death is prematurely announced quite often, but eventually it will be for real.  Even so, rural Australia is not going to just disappear.  People still live there, probably always will.  So wither those people?  Embracing the extreme Christian Right like they do in the depressed country towns of America?  Or something better?</p>
<p>Point being there, that the Liberals wouldn&#8217;t be sitting near as comfortably without their Coalition.  Which also perhaps shouldn&#8217;t be regarded as &#8216;for all time&#8217;.
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		<title>by: Florence Howarth</title>
		<link>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4132</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kenalovell.com/blog/2007/08/28/is-kevin-rudd-a-new-menzies/#comment-4132</guid>
					<description>I believe that Unions are more comfortable with Labor not in power.  There is a lot to be said for breaking the nexus between labor and the Unions. It would not be the end of the if this happened, both would  become stronger if this happened.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that Unions are more comfortable with Labor not in power.  There is a lot to be said for breaking the nexus between labor and the Unions. It would not be the end of the if this happened, both would  become stronger if this happened.
</p>
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